My life in PR has recently become quite contentious with admins and other notable Aussie PR figures. The reason for this is because some of the decisions I make tactically I fail to explain to the team before I do them. This causes angst and threats to kick me, or ban me. So, I thought I'd give a bit of history and explain what I do and why I do it!

 

Since I started playing, I found my feet in this great game and one thing quickly became apparent: very few people like to squad lead.

Much of the time the clans would have their locked squads, and so I would always end up leading pick up groups (which I have developed a fondness for).

As such, I'd try and work out how to best forge them into some sort of blunt, tactical device (think hammer) in order to accomplish something substantial within the game. This was all well and good, but after a while (4 months) I started to find the game became more like work and less like fun (SLing takes it out of you!).

So, myself and my friends started running small 2-3 man squads (which I find to be the perfect combination of manoeuvrability, fire power and diversity). In our squad, our main objective is this: to support through wise decisions, the entire team, OR to attack pressure points on the enemy, in order to collapse them. For clarity, we recently named ourselves OG, in order to distinguish us in our teams.

 

When we play, we move very quickly and spend much of our time hiding. Our size and play style makes us valuable for insertion, and we thrive on hit and run tactics. Often these tactics are quite audacious.

 

Citing several recent blow ups (arguments with admins etc), I wanted to explain some of what we do.

 

First of all, on Jabal, when playing as MEC, we build a firebase on the west side of the map at the base of the cliffs (next to the road that leads to west beach). Many people thought this was stupid, and constantly yelled it game chat at me.

 

The tactical reasons for this FOB were this:

- it gave a spawn that was close enough to affect dam and the road from west.

- it allowed us to build an AA overlooking the whole of dam (we took out two hueys that game)

- enemy APCs cannot destroy it due to it's placing, and the fact that we always mine and mark the west beach road.

- when spawning, allies may attack either dam or west beach from easily defended high ground.

- when defending, the enemy must fall down the cliff to take the FOB down (unless he is able to find the special path). Similarly, the FOB is far enough away to make any attack a major endeavour. Due to the flag system, it also means he has to backtrack away from South and risk that flank.

 

As a result, the FOB lasted the whole game, causing a great diversion and attack launching point whenever we took SB.

 

Similarly, I have always found it slightly incomprehensible to build an FOB right on the dam itself. Due to the exposed area, it means that the FOB can always be immediately seen, and it's very quickly taken down, or becomes a windswept and indefensible position. With the FOB we built, the enemy can either never find it, or never be bothered to take it down. It also gives allies a good defensive high position with which to attack the enemy (usually from behind, as other MEC squads close from SB).

 

On Kozelsk:

Much of the time, myself and my friends have the most fun with the CE kit (it's where it's at!), using a techie to dive behind enemy lines (dodging tanks and APC's), setting up IED traps and destroying FOB's and RP's. We take down usually 2-3 FOB's, 4-8 RP's, 3 logis, 2 apcs and a tank or so in a game. A few months ago we blew the bridge as two tanks crossed. The first tank fell backwards into the water and immobilised it the entire game. That was one of our most enjoyable victories. The same game, we were cruising behind enemy lines (trying to preempt a Russian defense of lumber camp) when we came across 3 RP's and an FOB being built. Opening up on a squadfull flatbed of a transport truck with a technical 50 was one of the coolest things I have done in this game.

Funnily enough, people often don't realise how much effort we've gone to in order to rid the team of another APC, tank, FOB or enemy squad! Therefore, it can be frustrating when people start criticising us.

In that particular game of Kozelsk, the squad who arrived at an empty lumber camp started screaming at us to go defend it and stop being lazy haha. Got to take it in good humour, which I sometimes struggle to do.

 

Obviously, when running these sort of SAS tactics, we dissuade others from joining the squad. We don't want to divert the manpower away from the frontline, and our 2-3 men is enough to accomplish big tactical victories.

 

Also, I wanted to mention that when I call out squad victories (like, "Two APC's down."), it's not to brag, it's to let our team know that we're functioning properly and getting jobs done - not just dicking around for no reason.

 

I'm going to extend this later - as I need to go to work!

If you ever have any problem with what I'm doing in game, don't hesitate to ask!

Edited November 6, 200915 yr by The Product

Much of the time the clans would have their locked squads

Locked squads are prohibited on these servers btw. I think you mean clan members tending to stick together and hence fill up the entire squad?

 

It's not the point anyways

Edited November 6, 200915 yr by Stoked24

Locked squads are prohibited on these servers btw. I think you mean clan members tending to stick together and hence fill up the entire squad?

 

It's not the point anyways

Yeah, I'm talking about before the rule.

So.....what were people/admins complaining about? The way you've described it seems fine.....

So.....what were people/admins complaining about? The way you've described it seems fine.....

 

Well, in the Jabal map, I had mobius.au telling me incessantly that it was the "stupidest place to put a FB he had ever seen", and that I should never do it again or he would tell the admins I was wasting assets.

 

In the Kozelsk games, I was constantly told to "do something" and stop wasting assets. We had one technical which we meticulously returned, reloaded and repaired the entire game.

 

On one Muttrah game, myself and my mate (who was CE) were USA and deep behind enemy lines at the chokepoint roads. We mined it up, and as my friend mined, I decided to go take down the horrifically predictable MEC FOB at Mosque. I went and took it down, and then I saw an AA go up in the suburbs near construction. The admin on at the time started telling me to go and defend docks, and that my engineer would be fine there by himself. I argued that one officer is better taking down the FOB's instead of walking from west city to docks. I didn't realise it was an admin (I didn't recognise the name), and I got rather frustrated after all these random orders came through telling me I was an idiot. I rather carelessly said "please, ive taken down .... so shut up". I then got about 15 meters from the next enemy FOB and i was kicked for not using teamwork.

 

After taking down 5 logis, 2 transports, 4 bpms, 3 infantry and almost two FOB's, you can imagine I was infuriated. Obviously, I shouldn't have told the admin to "shut up", but I didn't realise until too late.

 

I also couldn't remonstrate myself because he was too angry.

 

The thing is, it's obvious how useful we are when you are in my squad, but if you just look at the map or the scoreboard (unless we've really been putting up the FOB's or doing a lot of transport kills), it doesn't really appear all that great. The thing is, tanking down 3 apcs, a tank and four logis can sometimes appear only as 11 kills spread across a squad of two or three. So I can empathise with people who think we're stupid, but I just prefer it if they ask before they blast!

We take no deaths though.

Edited November 6, 200915 yr by The Product

Most people look on a map and see 6 blobs sitting away from a flag. Simple as that, and when they see those six blobs, you are automatically classified as useless.

Most people look on a map and see 6 blobs sitting away from a flag. Simple as that, and when they see those six blobs, you are automatically classified as useless.

 

thats why we try and keep it to two or three blobs. however, with the no locking rule that has become very difficult. if im leading infantry, we'll always be in the thick of it

I think one of the big problems you will find is that people really expect the majority of players to be on or around the flags that are in contention.

 

Now the way you have described it your "SAS tactics" seem to be quite legitimate and useful to the team, however since the majority of squads that are not on or near the flags are usually being quite useless and you are in the vast minority. Hence it leads to the problem that people are most likely going to assume that you are not doing anything useful unless you can prove otherwise.

 

This becomes even more of a problem when the team is losing because they don't have enough men on the flags. Understandably people are going to crack the sads if you are in A1 and the rest of the team is desperately screaming for backup as they get their asses kicked from flag to flag.

 

It would probably help if you gave frequent situation reports through team chat to keep the team aware of what you are doing Eg. "Squad 2 hunting FB is E6" or "Squad 2 destroyed enemy tank". That way people could be reassured that you are having an effect.

 

Bottom line, by using such tactics you are within the rules and are helping the team but you are going to be questioned by other players and the admins who don';t know what you are up to.

 

 

Regarding the FB on Jabal I can see where mobius was coming from in spite of his rudeness, IMHO I think that FB would be too far away to be useful in assisting dam and bridge, if west was in contention it would be good. I guess with FBs the main thing to think about is that you want FBs near the flags that are in contention before you start putting them out on the fringes. If you are putting FBs out in the boonies when your team needs a few on or around the important flags then you can see how they would be pissed off. But each to their own I suppose.

Edited November 6, 200915 yr by mrchickenfool

i liked your write-up, max.

 

pinkfloyd has a point. blobs on a map, wandering about in a corner look like blobs doing nothing. you may have valid reasons for being there but i think in most cases, the admins make the right decisions regarding the useless blobs and luck out in very few. you may have been unlucky.

 

personally, i wanted to see an admin decision vetting process during the teamwork trial, as in the community could comment, after the fact, on the reasons why certain players were kicked, so as to hone the admin's instincts regarding it but that's neither here nor there.

 

i think having you kicked on occasions has made for a better server, regardless of the doom and gloom before it came in. not saying you have deserved to have been kicked, just like the adage goes; 'you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs'.

after a while (4 months) I started to find the game became more like work and less like fun (SLing takes it out of you!).

 

yeah i found that too...

i liked your write-up, max.

 

pinkfloyd has a point. blobs on a map, wandering about in a corner look like blobs doing nothing. you may have valid reasons for being there but i think in most cases, the admins make the right decisions regarding the useless blobs and luck out in very few. you may have been unlucky.

 

personally, i wanted to see an admin decision vetting process during the teamwork trial, as in the community could comment, after the fact, on the reasons why certain players were kicked, so as to hone the admin's instincts regarding it but that's neither here nor there.

 

i think having you kicked on occasions has made for a better server, regardless of the doom and gloom before it came in. not saying you have deserved to have been kicked, just like the adage goes; 'you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs'.

Thanks! I totally get your points. As was the case, I decided I'd need to become more than just an argumentative tool in game (which is how it must look), and actually explain myself at length. Similarly, I'm yet to see many other people doing the same thing as us, so it's fair enough that admins would just assume we were wasting time. I think I'll try to give frequent update reports.

 

Also, in terms of wasted manpower, we keep the squad very small for that reason, and also so that we have a very low visual signature and comms is very simple and easy. When we are losing a flag, I find it is most helpful to set up priority lists.

 

So, if we start losing Training Camp as Chechen, my squad will make busy swamp and tunnel ploughing for RP's and FOB's, before pulling back to the west bridge and guarding that (to stop Russian vehicles making a break).

 

It only just occured to me that while this is of very high tactical advantage in game (their team can't respawn and they can't make good on their gains), it must look like a waste of time on the map! :wacko:

There is a lesson to be learnt from threads like this guys both for players like dirty and the people who are so quick to call them out for not being team players blah blah blah.

 

ASSUMPTIONS MAKE ARSES OUT OF US ALL! :wacko:

 

Never assume someone is being a tard/idiot/not a team player. Address them first try to find out what they are doing. Have them keep in contact with the team so you can all work together.

 

That said never assume some is being tactical/smart/a team player because that is not always the case either. So address them as well and make sure they keep in contact with the team so you can all work together.

 

This is why it would be nice to see more commanders in the future and team leaders working together. Yes leading can be annoying and you can't always storm in wielding the largest gun with no regrets but it comes with other rewards. Like sending your minions in first to get shot and tell you where the enemy is.

Yes leading can be annoying and you can't always storm in wielding the largest gun with no regrets but it comes with other rewards. Like sending your minions in first to get shot and tell you where the enemy is.

 

BAM! I was playing the Beta on Fools Road the other night, and we sent one guy 100 meters ahead to scout. Best idea I've had in working out this new system. With the one guy ahead, we get all the intel and can set up a good defensive line. If he went down (usually he wouldn't as his orders were to run off center away from us so that we could attack their flank as they followed him), we would just dominate them a minute later and pop him up again.

The chechens lost that game (two nights ago) due to no transport, but my squad ended the game with 24 kills and two deaths. One of my proudest moments, and something that swayed me to the new Beta gameplay.

I'm sure you can understand why the admins sometimes have to draw a line somewhere because as others have said, the majority of the time it actually is just people being a nuisance off in some random area. Of course, you'll find if you explain yourself calmly and clearly we will listen.

When we play, we move very quickly and spend much of our time hiding. Our size and play style makes us valuable for insertion, and we thrive on hit and run tactics. Often these tactics are quite audacious.

So, you go 'lone wolf' and blow things up without having a key idea in mind, IE taking a flag or assisting with supplies and transport?

 

 

First of all, on Jabal, when playing as MEC, we build a firebase on the west side of the map at the base of the cliffs (next to the road that leads to west beach). Many people thought this was stupid, and constantly yelled it game chat at me.

Last time i checked there wasn't any 'cliffs' as such on Jabal, if you'd be kind enough as to point it out on this map?

 

If people are yelling at you, theres probably a good reason for it. Building a base FAR FAR away from a cappable flag pulls one out of play near it, and with the new no rally system its going to be even more valuable.

 

 

- it gave a spawn that was close enough to affect dam and the road from west.

Assuming you are talking about north of the staging ground that is west of dam, I don't see how that can help at all considering an APC can easily get up there by going up from the beach and onto the dam.

- it allowed us to build an AA overlooking the whole of dam (we took out two hueys that game)

2 Hueys is no achievement where one on SB can shutdown the entrances to Jabal, East Beach, SB and dam.

 

Plus I fail to see where you are placing this, on the left or right hand sides of the road leading to WB?

- enemy APCs cannot destroy it due to it's placing, and the fact that we always mine and mark the west beach road.

See above. APC's can go close to anywhere on Jabal, considering they can get onto the Dam staging area it wouldn't be hard to go over the hill and hit your firebase. LAV's are impossible to tip.

- when spawning, allies may attack either dam or west beach from easily defended high ground.

Again, have to see placement before this can be noted. And im sure if people are having a go at you for the firebase, noone is spawning on it.

 

- when defending, the enemy must fall down the cliff to take the FOB down (unless he is able to find the special path). Similarly, the FOB is far enough away to make any attack a major endeavour. Due to the flag system, it also means he has to backtrack away from South and risk that flank.

Backtrack away from south? Are you saying the enemy will go for your firebase in the event that they are taking south? Noone is going to waste a squad when they can take SB, and roll in a LAV straight into jabal near the warehouse.

 

As a result, the FOB lasted the whole game, causing a great diversion and attack launching point whenever we took SB.

Props to you for staying away from flags yet somehow diverting enemies to win the game.

 

Similarly, I have always found it slightly incomprehensible to build an FOB right on the dam itself. Due to the exposed area, it means that the FOB can always be immediately seen, and it's very quickly taken down, or becomes a windswept and indefensible position.

You've obviously never build one under the dam then. Noone can see it, APC's can't get gun elevation either without risking falling of the cliffs at the dam power station.

 

With the FOB we built, the enemy can either never find it, or never be bothered to take it down. It also gives allies a good defensive high position with which to attack the enemy (usually from behind, as other MEC squads close from SB).

 

Never underestimate the power of CAS. If you have someone constantly spamming AA around there then you have a chance, but if they have a commander who can mark the firebase, in comes a CAS from under dam and boom, it goes.

 

No firebase is invincible.

 

Obviously, when running these sort of SAS tactics, we dissuade others from joining the squad. We don't want to divert the manpower away from the frontline, and our 2-3 men is enough to accomplish big tactical victories.

Tactical victories? A tactical victory is taking a flag, not camping a bridge with C4.

 

What 'SAS tactics' what on earth would you know about how the SAS operate? Are you in the SAS? Have you seen SAS SMEAC's and movements?

 

From what I've read about, the SAS don't usually waste their time with C4 on tanks and whatnot. In fact, from the book 'SAS Soldiers Story' that I've been reading, the SAS would want to bypass an engagement like that. Why? Because now enemies know your operating in that area.

 

If anything, your tactics are more closely related to that of the Taliban and Iraqi Insurgents.

 

Also, I wanted to mention that when I call out squad victories (like, "Two APC's down."), it's not to brag, it's to let our team know that we're functioning properly and getting jobs done - not just dicking around for no reason.

So instead you come to the forum to make a thread categorizing your victories?

 

Functioning properly is having a clear goal in mind, communicating intelligence to the team, helping out on flag capture and cache destruction, and providing support to the team. The total opposite of that is building a personal firebase in hills on Jabal and camping roads with C4.

 

I'm not trying to be an elitist jerk. I just question your 'valid tactics' and going on your own little special forces adventure while the rest of the team is hard-arsing it around capping flags and contributing to the game.

Edited November 6, 200915 yr by Yrkidding

Dtacs, you are making our eyes bleed with that post.

 

Take a chill pill and share the love around, Max comes with good intentions.

Dtacs (and this might open a whole other can of worms) there are more ways to contribute to a victory than directly capping a flag or running transport/supplies.....

You're right jam, but isn't it just a BIT more helpful having that happen than going off on a random tangent?

 

I'm not angry rooter, just pointing out my beliefs of why his tactics are invalid. If he has the right to say why they are right, I should have the right to say why they are wrong.

just pointing out my beliefs of why his tactics are invalid. If he has the right to say why they are right, I should have the right to say why they are wrong.

not using the jabal one as an example but if his small "SAS team" (personally i'd think more Commandos as they are the 'hit n run' dept whereas SAS are more 'strategic recon' and like you say dtacs, try an avoid fights like that) are taking out FBs etc wouldn't that ease the pressure on flags being capped as the enermy would have to move further to bring troops to the front?

Personally, I think Max would like to be playing a different game. Sure, it's great to pretend you are engaging in deep recon and disrupting enemy supply lines but unfortunately Dtacs is right, BF2/PR is almost purely about numbers on flag. Doesn't mean Max's style is wrong, just not suited to BF2. Best results are achieved by numbers on flag with one squad of 6 ready to pounce on next flag, in most cases.

 

Which brings me to the whole no rally point thing, wrong engine/wrong gamemode, doesn't 'do it' for me. I prefer PR to be a more realistic action rather than a simulator. A game without lean, free aim and great ballistics just can't get to that point.

time to chill and reflect on the positives.

You're right jam, but isn't it just a BIT more helpful having that happen than going off on a random tangent?

 

Kittens.

not using the jabal one as an example but if his small "SAS team" (personally i'd think more Commandos as they are the 'hit n run' dept whereas SAS are more 'strategic recon' and like you say dtacs, try an avoid fights like that) are taking out FBs etc wouldn't that ease the pressure on flags being capped as the enermy would have to move further to bring troops to the front?

 

Yes. It would, however IMO its just not worth it when compared to having the extra troops to push a flag blue.

 

I dunno. He can do it all he likes, but he doesn't get any respect from me when doing it in pubs..don't know about the rest of the server though.

Kittens.

 

Hundreds of them.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtik5zN5m2g]Crazy Russian Cat Lady (owns 130 cats)[/ame]

Edited November 6, 200915 yr by Yrkidding

Thanks Max for taking the time to explain yourself, sometimes you see a squad in the boonies and it does irk you off when you would be capping with 2 extra men on the flag, but I agree fully that sometimes the actions of one man can turn the hand of the controlling team.

 

Example getting dropped miles from the flag by chopper to be a lone gun sneaking all the way in behind enemy lines to destroy an FB which allows the attacking squads relief and to gain that position or flag. done it many many times even as an SL while advising my SQ to keep on course to the target

I find that people don't complain if you provide constant updates regarding traffic moving in and out of your chokepoint. There will always be someone QQ'ing about your chosen style of play, but if you stay vocal (tank moving through, apc has been destroyed, 5 inf on xport NW etc) the majority will back you up.