Hey all,

 

Everyone here either likes or absolutely HATES the PR deviation and sprinting among other things that have been changed in .8 compared to .75

 

As for me, I do not mind it but unfortunately that is not the same for my fellow players.

 

80% - 90% of Project Reality players from TEA have stopped playing it because of these issues, I am worried that they will not play it again if something isn't done to correct this ASAP. I am sure there are other PR clans that have the same issues with people not wanting to play it.

 

There needs to be an intermediate patch to sort out the current issues without having to wait for .85 to be released.

 

I want to know how many people agree that .8 has changed things for the worst before posting on RealityMod about how many people have stopped playing because of these issues.

the changes annoy me, but i still like the game, use to love, now only like...shes like my booty call when im desperate i tap it

must admit, the brief time i played .75, i was shooting a lot more acurately. now, unless i'm using my deployed squad mg i can not hit jack no matter how long i wait. that plus the insurgent maps being the only map thats on when i join is why i haven't been on in a while (oh yeah, an wife transcribing means i cant use pc period).

Everyone can consider this the only warning they are going to receive from the admin team in relation to this thread. Keep your comments on topic, do not post any inflammatory comments, respect your fellow forum members opinions & please double check posts before you put them up. If anyone try's to turn this into another slag fest about how this version 5UXS, the [R-DEVS] don't know what doing and how they should do it "there way" you will find this thread locked and likely your forum access limited.

 

As to stance on this topic there has being allot of threads started both here and on the PR forums proper. I feel the DEV team takes little notice of them because there usually poorly written, rude or just down right insulting. If you want to go ahead see some actual changes you would be better off not posting within the normal confines of the forums. A better way of having your misgivings taken seriously would be to coop someone who has access to the private areas.

 

I'll leave that up to you and yours personally because while I'm not overly fond of the changes I have adapted to them and only play the game on forums members nights or in clan matches. I feel the lack of maturity within the community is more of a problem for me personally then the game mechanics themselves.

There needs to be an intermediate patch to sort out the current issues without having to wait for .85 to be released.

Well I'm quite interested in what you'd propose Poncho. Maybe a few bullet points with specific reference to maps, annoyances, community aspects... just to get an idea of where you're coming from. I'm sure my position is well known by now but just to reiterate:

 

http://www.bigdgaming.net/showthread.php?p=105605#post105605

http://www.bigdgaming.net/showthread.php?p=105376#post105376

http://www.bigdgaming.net/showthread.php?p=105244#post105244

Originally Posted by [R-CON]Wolfe

Weapon performance vs. Weapon performance in the hands of a soldier.

BF2 does not currently use weapon sway or body momentum which are two critical factors when determining weapon performance in the hands of a soldier. Without these factors, the next best thing is to simulate them by incorporation into the weapon deviation itself. This means that cones of fire will be wider and settle times will be longer.

 

This is also where wiki-wannabees and military advisers get their panties in a knot; they expect the coding to match the realism of the weapon while completely ignoring other factors that allow a realistic weapon to be used in unrealistic ways.

 

Some people want weapon performance to be represented by the coding, and weapon performance in the hands of a soldier to be represented by their mouse. The problem with that style of coding is that it allows players to aim/shoot as fast as they can move their mouse: turn your mouse 1/4 inch and your 180lb. soldier turns 360 degrees with little or no loss of accuracy. If you're trying to mod a super-twitch run'n gun, then this is the way to go and is exactly what we saw in PRv6. Sure, the weapon coding itself is realistic, but the weapon performance in the hands of a soldier extends into the realm of fictional super heroes. If that's what we want, then let's be honest about it and re-skin the uniforms to include capes.

 

All kidding aside though, deviation has to match soldier behavior, not weapon behavior. Otherwise, you'll never achieve any degree of realistic soldier combat.

 

All in all, I think I succeeded at achieving those goals but it's not perfect, yet.

 

-------------

 

Just a little player/DEV contribution on the topic there. Alot of players with problems on the deviation are a little shy of the community (not saying everyone, a few regulars have made it clear on what a portion of the general community thinks of it) so its contructive if you first read that, then the "conversations" we had on those threads Psyrus listed. The portion in bold is an extremely valid point so think about what he is trying to say with it.

 

Summing up what I said in those other threads, with people leaving the game because of it...I think its a little obsurd. I also think that people with the problem that are leaving arn't taking it upon themselves to answer the questions they might be asking themselves about it all. I never played PR for the gun dynamics. Im sure alot of the community didnt either. But if it is really that bad, maybe it should be tuned down a bit, however I think its on the right track.

 

 

Also take into account that just because another game has "perfect" accuracy portrayal, doesnt mean PR can have it too. This is Battlefield 2, it is run on a different engine than other games, it was made by EA (shudders) and is quite an old game which people still fail to adhere to the requirements

For a game made for arcade style, multi-role combat, PR has done more than anyone could have thought possible. Cut some slack and show just a little respect for people that give up their time for your personal enjoyment. They dont get payed for it, you/me dont pay a cent for it, and yet we only seem to give feedback when something doesnt go our own way.

Edited November 5, 200816 yr by YAK

I still think that quote makes absolutely no sense. You have tons of people who have shot weapons testifying that the behaviour displayed is absolute BS. "Twitch" has been turned into a bad word, it replaces the word "skill" which used to be a good thing but apparently being able to aim effectively with a mouse is waaaaay unrealistic, because I'm not holding a rifle in my hands.

 

As for this BS:

turn your mouse 1/4 inch and your 180lb. soldier turns 360 degrees with little or no loss of accuracy.

Well then code in the rotational differential that adds deviation if turned too fast... not this COF that takes... let's wait in suspense a little... 6.6 seconds to return to minimum, and that still has deviation! SIX SECONDS. A guy can run across a street in less time... Combine that with a sighting time of like what 1.5 seconds... *sigh* I know we're not supposed to make inflammatory posts but Wolfe ITWTTHTPRSEL [abbreviated so that i can express myself without censorship]

Edited November 5, 200816 yr by Husker

Why the hell won't people get over deviation. It has been said over and over and over and over and over that deviation is being changed in 0.85, it is being addressed, yet the topic still keeps coming up. Topics on this do NOT help, because topics like this do not do the one thing that is useful, actually come up with a solution. No, all they do is whinge how deviation is crap, how it is all luck based, how I can't hit anything in front of me even though I have waited a whole 10 seconds before I shoot.

 

So I will say this, if you want your age old complaint about deviation to go anywhere, either code a solution yourself, or come up with EXACT values that you want to see. Values I am talking about are things like, after waiting 3 seconds, prone, with the m16a4 acog, you will be able to put a bullet within a 0.2m radius at 250m. Do that for EVERY single weapon in game that you want the deviation to be modified, THEN go make a post in the suggestion area of the PR forums. If you even start doing that, then you might just realise that it isn't just a simple, oh, lets change this 1 to a 2 and look, EVERYTHING is fixed!!!!! No, you might realise that every value there effects the other, and every value has to be closely considered on how it affects the shooter, the target, weapon balance, and overall game balance.

 

You will not get a patch or fix before 0.85. The only patches or whatever that might/will come out before 0.85 will be server patches for maps. Why won't you get a patch, read previous point. It isn't a simple fix, and it will probably take the entire development cycle of 0.85 to come up with a new system. Bam, there goes a coder or two, and now they are dedicated to that and won't have time to work on something different. There goes the hope of getting that something cool that you always wanted, but now won't, since the coder that was going to do that is solely focused on deviation. That something could have been player controlled mortars, that something could have been some cool feature that hasn't been thought up of yet because we're all too busy talking and thinking about deviation, that something could've been fastropes! heh. But you see, coding all this does actually take up a lot of dev resources, and one of these days we are going to have to say, "You know what? Screw you, the deviation stays as it is, deal with it. We are going to work on something actually different than deviation this release." Harsh much? Segue.

 

PR has never been a mod that has aimed to please the masses. This was said at the very start of Project Reality, back before anyone here, myself included, even knew what it was. This still stands today. If people don't like it, there is nothing keeping you here. That said, sure, we would like as many "mature" players as possible, and sure, there are a lot of current problems, deviation being one of them, that the we DO recognise and hope to fix. However, the original statement still stands, and there will ALWAYS be something that will be controversial.

Edited November 5, 200816 yr by fAithleSs

I have a solution, You dont like it, dont play it. Simple.

 

Thats what I did to fix the problem.. Stopped playing about 5 months ago, and happier then ever.

Before we start, naturally these complaints aren't against you, Ancient, nor Chuc nor the majority of the dev team. I have specific qualms with specific things that have been changed. I don't label the entire dev team as idiots or whatever, I just wish the person who has taken it upon himself to make these changes would remember the "Fun to his version of realism" ratio can still be maintained on occasion...

 

Why the hell won't people get over deviation.

Um... because it's broken and the #1 cause of rage in this release?

 

It has been said over and over and over and over and over that deviation is being changed in 0.85, it is being addressed, yet the topic still keeps coming up.

Because it's only about to get worse... As per this thread:

0.8 deviation reaches its minimum after 2.5 seconds of settle time. Your maximum accuracy @ 250m would be,

 

Stand = 0.9m

Crouch = 0.7m

Prone = 0.7m

 

0.75 deviation reached its minimum after1.3 seconds of settle time. Your maximum accuracy @ 250m would be,

Stand = 0.6m

Crouch = 0.5m

Prone = 0.4m

The changes posted reach minimum after 6.6 seconds of settle time. Your maximum accuracy @ 250m would be,

 

Stand = 0.7m

Crouch = 0.5m

Prone = 0.4m

I guess the angst comes from the fact that despite pleas for reprieve from reverting back to the vanilla cone of fire, we're actually moving more into cone of fire land, with it taking 6.6 seconds to come to rest. Oh and it's going from 0.9m deviation @ 250m to 0.7m @ 250m deviation after waiting almost three times as long.. w00t? So let me get this straight... I can sit there, perfectly still, proned, line a guy up for almost seven seconds and still miss? Wow... just wow.

 

Topics on this do NOT help, because topics like this do not do the one thing that is useful, actually come up with a solution. No, all they do is whinge how deviation is crap, how it is all luck based, how I can't hit anything in front of me even though I have waited a whole 10 seconds before I shoot.

There are solutions, but everyone dismisses them as whining too. It's called the 0.75 deviation model. Deviation: without the rage.

 

So I will say this, if you want your age old complaint about deviation to go anywhere, either code a solution yourself, or come up with EXACT values that you want to see. Values I am talking about are things like, after waiting 3 seconds, prone, with the m16a4 acog, you will be able to put a bullet within a 0.2m radius at 250m. Do that for EVERY single weapon in game that you want the deviation to be modified, THEN go make a post in the suggestion area of the PR forums. If you even start doing that, then you might just realise that it isn't just a simple, oh, lets change this 1 to a 2 and look, EVERYTHING is fixed!!!!! No, you might realise that every value there effects the other, and every value has to be closely considered on how it affects the shooter, the target, weapon balance, and overall game balance.

A) Where do we find the files needed to change these values?

B) Can I borrow a copy of the 0.75 version of those files? :hi:

 

There goes the hope of getting that something cool that you always wanted, but now won't, since the coder that was going to do that is solely focused on deviation. That something could have been player controlled mortars, that something could have been some cool feature that hasn't been thought up of yet because we're all too busy talking and thinking about deviation, that something could've been fastropes!

All of which are pretty meaningless to me if my gun can't even shoot straight after 7 seconds :sweat:

 

"You know what? Screw you, the deviation stays as it is, deal with it. We are going to work on something actually different than deviation this release." Harsh much? Segue.

Well... I really... really wish they'd said that after releasing 0.75, because it'd have been *awesome*. But no, 0.8 breaks deviation, 0.85 fixes most of it... 0.9 irons out the last of the bugs/issues, probably ending up somewhere similar to 0.75's model, after realizing the folly of cone of fire. So we're now [0.9] about 6-12 months down the track, back where we started with the deviation.

 

PR has never been a mod that has aimed to please the masses. This was said at the very start of Project Reality, back before anyone here, myself included, even knew what it was. This still stands today. If people don't like it, there is nothing keeping you here. That said, sure, we would like as many "mature" players as possible, and sure, there are a lot of current problems, deviation being one of them, that the we DO recognise and hope to fix. However, the original statement still stands, and there will ALWAYS be something that will be controversial.

Well as we've seen, a good portion, apparently TEA included, have taken just that advice of yours and packed their bags. That doesn't really *help* now does it? The mod keeps getting bigger and bigger but if they tell everyone to F-Off if they don't like it you end up with an epic 64+ player scale mod with 12-15 players a side... yay? There would probably be a lot less complaints if it was a lesser issue... but recall this deviation problem affects every shot you take, so of course it's going to bounce to the forefront of peoples' minds when they're playing [and raging in certain cases :sweat:]. Remember when 0.6X broke the commander assets? Lots of discussion about that too, luckily that got sorted out quicksmart, so it didn't drag along to the scale that the deviation does, and even then it was only affecting at most probably 1 in 4 or 5 players (squad leaders & commanders)... deviation affects everyone, except well the commander which don't even get me started on

 

But yeah to reiterate, the changes/contributions that you and chuc & nedlands have made are great... Unless secretly you're the one pulling the deviation strings in which case I should probably bow out of the conversation before things get spicy

:shower:

 

Edit: Oh and you'll note that most of my twittering on in regards to deviation has shifted away from the current play model, which yes it still annoys me to great lengths but I've adjusted for the most part, to the proposed 0.85 changes... the values I keep quoting and highlighting are the values that are coming in 0.85, which is what distresses me so! Either make it better or leave it alone [not you, I mean in general], just don't break it more!

Edited November 5, 200816 yr by Husker

Heh, it won't be 6.6 seconds... At least I hope not :|. Naa, that was posted a long while back, things change in a while . And also, you wouldn't miss, 0.4m is pretty damn accurate at that kind of range, considering that a soldier is 0.4m wide according to nedlands. 250m is a long way, almost all engagements in PR are 100m or less.

 

Jaymz is the one doing the deviation this time around.

 

0.75's deviation was complained about just as much as 0.8's was, probably not as much though, but there were still a fair few complaints. IIRC Psyrus, you even complained about it in the [bD] [N/A] Ejod match just before 0.8 came out. You please some, you piss off others. Just can't get it right .

Edited November 5, 200816 yr by fAithleSs

Heh, it won't be 6.6 seconds... At least I hope not :|. Naa, that was posted a long while back, things change in a while . And also, you wouldn't miss, 0.4m is pretty damn accurate at that kind of range, considering that a soldier is 0.4m wide according to nedlands. 250m is a long way, almost all engagements in PR are 100m or less.

Ah well that's all we had to go on... and it's right there, in the official 'dev' diary, with no updates so really how was I supposed to know?

:mail2:

 

Jaymz is the one doing the deviation this time around.

Yeah he locked his thread before I got to give him a piece of my mind... although I'd probably have been flamed to death by him and his deviation fanboys (honestly do these people even play the game?).

 

0.75's deviation was complained about just as much as 0.8's was, probably not as much though, but there were still a fair few complaints.

Yeah fair enough I mean going from 0 deviation -> 0.75 was a bit of a shock, but IMO it was manageable and most of all, predictable, which is probably one of my biggest gripes with the current model. I sat there counting on Jabal the other day... one onethousand, two onethousand, three onethousand... fire... miss still! WTF [this is at bridge, so less than 50m]. In a nutshell, I could adjust and play around it, sure there were moments of wtf, but nowhere near as what I experience on a minutely basis these days.. but as you say changes are in the works, and I've largely adjusted however if I get the chance, you can be sure I'll put my 2c in.

 

IIRC Psyrus, you even complained about it in the [bD] [N/A] Ejod match just before 0.8 came out.

Haha well we know I'll say anything to mask how terrible I am at the game :stink:

 

But in all seriousness, I didn't complain that often

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee94/psyrus_uraya/screen112-1.jpg

 

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee94/psyrus_uraya/PR%20shots/marksman.png

Return of the nerds garrrrrrrr!!!

*cough* ARMA *cough*

 

 

Oh wat did someone say something! LOL

 

I think u will all jus have to wait for .85! changes will be made with this much talk and complaints from all PR players across the world wide community. I dont play much anymore for this reason. But i think if you stick at it for .8 when .85 comes out (maybe xmas/NY release) you will be soo good at hitting things in .8 that in .85 killing someone will be a breeze.

 

Going from no deviation in .75 too almost no chance of hitting anything in .8 deviation was a bit harsh maybe smaller baby steps into deviation would of been wiser! But hindsight will always be the best judge!

 

As ancient said changes will and are being made. yes it is your right to complain but needless to say it not gonna get too far because wat you might say has already been said 10x over by many other PR community members.

 

Find another game and play that till .85 comes. Take a holiday and enjoy PR later! Or simply play for a social reason to have some good times not hitting anything with your mates! watch him struggle trying to shoot while u run for cover! Its quite enjoyable. Or be a medic to your squad that way with ironsights u know your not gonna hit much, but your not needed to kill cause all your squad members are dying because they cant kill anything either! Then you become usefull in a different way.

 

or do wat everyone one else does.... jump in the nearest vehicle with a gun and rush around doing wat u feel like, killing as many as u can with super accurate guns or large area of effect shells (HEAT).

 

Because .8 has been out for a while i think complianing or raising these issues is a bit pointless and old news. Not to say that u cant or shouldnt. Its jus everyone and i mean EVERYONE knows and is effected by the deviation changes some choose to play anyway and try to master it.... others jus play other games while they wait for it to be fixed!

 

 

But anywhoo.... im off to an exam im bound to fail so have fun with PR or wat ever other game u choose! Remember if you find a game that u enjoy some of us in BigD community might play it too!

Edited November 5, 200816 yr by Gypsy8

Muhahahahahaha,

just fix the deviation problems already!!!

I,m not going to go into detailed explanations on what i think.You have your feedback,your long time players are leaving and frequently have voiced their disgust.So whats the grey area?

noompsi noompsi noompsi....!

 

 

havent you heard they are.... just take time....

 

and we want detail explanations on how u dont like this an that and how crap everything is cause is jus not cricket anymore!!! long whinging posts are much better then short up front in ya face posts.... more thought and consideration into your argument makes all the difference.... IT actually makes the devs work harder and faster!

 

 

 

you guys obviously dont believe enough in the FORCE!!! cause that will help you kill! its a bit like that "secret" in the book "The Secret" the law of attraction! if you believe in killing that person it will happen!

 

* step 1 Ask for that person to be hit by your bullet

* step 2 believe like it has already has happened!

* step 3 recive the person is dead!

 

 

[ame=http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=usbNJMUZSwo]YouTube - The Chaser's War on Everything - The Secret[/ame]

Edited November 5, 200816 yr by Gypsy8

Uh oh..not this thread again.

We already have 11 pages of whinging on the subject of 0.8 here. The last thing we need is another thread about it.

If you want to take it to the DEVs, then do so in a polite and helpful manner, however, given the amount of whinging on the PR forums covering the exact same topic, I doubt it will help much.