Speaking from experience here (Red Orchestra: Ostfront), it is probably not wise, in everyone's best interests to have 1-3 clans absorbing all new players into their ranks.

 

I have just noticed recently that some of the big 3 have recruited some more players which has resulted in me thinking that it is counter-productive to the community/ladder as a whole. While I know it's great to have a large playerbase in your clan to cover yourself from all angles, you effectively stifle all competition by reducing diversity across the board.

 

Just ask yourself, as you recruit more and more, is being the top team worth having no one to play against?

 

If the Top 3 want to increase their size, you must allow the other teams to 'switch' members between themselves to put up some challenge. Otherwise the smaller clans will wither and die as they get no new recruits to fill their ranks, nor any competitive edge.

 

Just a personal opinion based on personal experience. RO:OST has 3 large clans and nothing else (3rd, TOG, RATS). All new members join either of the 3. Not a very successful ladder/competition in the making. New players automatically gravitate towards the successful, large clans so it's up to these big clans to push them elsewhere and build something worth having.

 

What do you think?

You may be a big clan but if you have no active members it doesnt mean anything.

I agree Why do u guys keep recruiting?

[TEA] and +SiN+ can barley get enough players for 10 v 10 PR.

If we all leave the ladder it will just be 3 clan's in the comp.

Just because our clans have a lot of members doesn't mean we don't struggle to get the numbers for matches. A lot of our players are casual or on again off again players and don't play very much or are unreliable.

 

We still have AusSniper in [WC] and I don't think he has played a game since last year, if that. *pokes Sniper with a stick*

 

EDIT: Also I would like to add that [WC], N/A, and [bD] are clans that were formed straight out of the BigD community specifically for the league. We are not well established clans trying to raise a PR division, PR is our only division. I think people who only play PR are more attracted to PR only clans. This is opposed to clans that play many games and hence the time their players spend online is split between many games making it harder to get reliable PR division from said clan.

 

Lastly, [WC] at least is not actively recruiting at all, and we have only had one active recruiting cycle since the formation of the clan where we actively went out and found new players and asked them to join up.

 

The only way we accept players while not actively recruiting is if a player comes to us and requests to join up of their own free will. Should we turn them down and deny their right to choose their own clan for the good of the smaller clans in the league?

Edited July 15, 200816 yr by mrchickenfool

But, it's all statistics. You could say 35% of any clan are inactive.

 

Therefore the smaller clans are struggling even more than you.

 

 

I wasn't trying to make a statement on clan size, more to serve a warning that if you are in any position to knock back a player, do it for the good of the community rather than serving your own immediate needs.

 

In the long run it will make a difference. You will look back on a rich ladder, with every team being competitive, not just 2 of them.

So your saying we should boot out our inactive players so they can become someone elses problem? Good idea!

I think that people need to focus on what is best for the ladder. Yes more players in smaller teams may help but asking larger teams to knock back people is always going to be hard. I think what we need to do as a community is get more people interested in the ladder and therefore interested in being in an active clan.

 

Target the community as a whole and ask them to seriously consider joining a smaller clan. There will be more games they can play as they will always be needed and there is little difference in player abilities between the clans.

S.O.P showed how this can be done by deciding that joining a smaller team may give them a better chance at competing.

 

So to all players that are interested in having a great time playing the mod, even casually, joing one of the clans that is active in the community and get a few scrim matches under your belt. I bet you wont leave and will see a vast difference in your enjoyment level if you so.

Over 50% of [N/A] are inactive in some fashion, dont scrim, train, read forums, computers/internet dont work, overseas or something, we got 7 to a training night for a scrim and are short for the scrim, having a lot of players doesnt help, recruiting the right players is more hit and miss than the BF2 net code

I think its a personality thing too. The guys we get joining [N/A] all say they like our attitude and feel they have the same attitude.

 

Its hard to knock back people when they're asking to join cause they feel compatible with your ethos.

I agree that we have to do whatever we can to help the smaller teams in the ladder stay competitive (personally I think the merc system is the corner stone of keeping their numbers up).

 

However as the Captain of [WC] (and don't take this the wrong way) I will not turn down a player purely based on the fact that another team could use them more.

 

If a player puts a post in the "looking for a clan thread" I usually don't touch it anyway, but if a player comes to [WC] and wants to join us specifically (usually because they like playing with our members or they like the way our clan works/feels) I will not deny them their preference.

Have a cry...

...However as the Captain of [WC] (and don't take this the wrong way) I will not turn down a player purely based on the fact that another team could use them more...

 

Its all about building the strongest team you can. Ideally you want so many active members that you have to choose who plays, unfortunately that's rarely the case. At least with us anyway.

Have a cry...

 

that's the community spirit I believe we need

Sensitive much? I'm trying to have an adult conversation here, posts like that aren't that constructive. /E-moral outrage kicking in...

 

I can understand Wolf, but as I stated, new players automatically gravitate to the bigger, competitive clans. It's human nature to join a winning team.

 

It's up to you guys, you want a small ladder, you can have a small ladder. With the smaller clans inability to move members between themselves (rules), we have little to no ability of recruiting many players when the top 3 grab them before anyone else does.

 

I've put my case forward, that's all I can do. Enjoy the ladder.

So your saying we purposely go after players so you can't field teams so we win? omg...

Settle it down boys and girls.

 

There is to be no finger pointing and attacking each other.

 

Lets for once let this be a mature discussion between people that want whats best for the community.

 

We dont need people coming in and trying to turn it into a slinging match.

We only have 15 or 16 people in [bD], and we too struggle to get players... It's the same for everyone, if there were more "active" people to go around, then everyone would be better off, but all the "active" people are already in a clan. But still, that is why there are mercs, for people who can't commit full time to a team, but are still interested in the ladder matches. If a team is short on the night, look to the mercs.

 

0.8 will change this, as with all other major releases, there have been MASSIVE amounts of new people (and old ones returning), and with 0.8 shaping up to be the biggest of them all, hopefully that ties in with the player increase.

I think WC is one of the bigger ones for the fact that no one leaves. We are one of the original clans in the bD community since before the server change I think. Most of the people are the same with some additions.

 

No one leaves WC, no jerks have been let in so far other than Daveee.

So your saying we purposely go after players so you can't field teams so we win? omg...

That's two offhand comments that aren't even remotely close to the truth.

 

No one is saying that, and you aren't too bright if you honestly think it.

 

 

Moving on. If your numbers are truly poor, then you have nothing to worry about. You can't be blamed for that.

 

Example: To take Wolf's comment on context, if his clan is large enough to support a team and he keeps absorbing players, then that really isn't helpful to anyone. WC becomes a super-clan that has no trouble fielding 20 if so desired, while everyone else suffers. It isn't intentional I'm sure but it does have negative impacts.

 

Simple enough?

 

0.8 will change this' date=' as with all other major releases, there have been MASSIVE amounts of new people (and old ones returning), and with 0.8 shaping up to be the biggest of them all, hopefully that ties in with the player increase.[/quote']

 

All well and good, but it still doesn't solve the hypothetical that I have presented. What if, freakishly, every single new player is recruited into the 3 big clans (because that's who the new players see who do well), we are left in the same situation. What I was suggesting was to try and share the love for the good of the ladder/community and create a balanced set of teams. It's a conscious decision I think some aren't capable of even entertaining if it presented itself.

Edited July 15, 200816 yr by captncrunch240

i think the biggest issue is that when new players join and look at the scoreboard, its N/A, [WC] and [bD] and maybe a one or two of other clans. this makes it hard to compete with. as you'll no doubt notice STOMP have had to recruit $A$ players to compete with us in the ladder. where you have 35% inactive, we have only about 25% active. even with the $A$ players we had to call in assistance from vanilla players to make the 10. there is no-one to blame for this, dont get me wrong, its just because of your overwhelming presence here that makes it difficult for us to recruit.

and you aren't too bright

.

 

 

 

Ok...heres where discussion takes a break and it gets personal.

 

The problem with the Interweb is that it is hard to judge how comments one person makes are going to be interpreted by another reader.

 

The other problem with the Interweb is that,that will always be a problem...

 

Never get personal...there is no real point.

 

People get personal=threads get shut down="Mods locking threads,Wtf...Why.".etc...

 

(not directed to SOP ,or Madhouse... they just gave me the reason to say this..).

 

This has been a bahlye pov......,not an Admins pov...

Edited July 15, 200816 yr by Gunner_downer

No one leaves WC, no jerks have been let in so far other than Daveee.

We told Daveee we would not let jerks into [WC] but then he asked "Then why is Smokey playing for you guys?" so we made another exception.

 

Though in reality some people have left [WC] for their own reasons, more have been asked to leave or discharged for not upholding the clan standards.

 

i think the biggest issue is that when new players join and look at the scoreboard, its N/A, [WC] and [bD] and maybe a one or two of other clans. this makes it hard to compete with.

I will agree that this does tip the recruiting balance in favor of the bigger clans as they get more exposure in the servers because there are more of us.

 

Most of our recruits come to [WC] because they play a few public rounds with our guys and they get hooked with our awesome players and how we operate.

 

However it only takes 3 or so guys from a clan to get a good clan squad going, surely even the under manned teams can muster up a few core players and show the non-clanners what they are about just as well as the supposed 'big clans'.

 

If there are only a few of us [WC]ers on (even when I am the only one on) I always try to call my squad [WC] to keep our presence known on the server, I find that whenever the squad carries a clan tag people are more inclined to join in as they know the squad will work well. These are the squads that normally fill in a nanosecond after being created.

Edited July 15, 200816 yr by mrchickenfool

I definitely appreciate where SOP is coming from, and I hope that teams are taking these issues into consideration. I did, however, say in the ladder captains/admin lounge during the rule discussion that the inter-clan mercenary use was ok as a last resort... here is the official word from a thread you all can't see [from me, the ladder admin]:

 

"I'm happy to allow it, under the provision that it is a last-resort sort of thing. There seems to be a big underestimation of the merc-pool's power to bolster numbers, but if it is truly disconcerting to you, I'd rather put your mind at ease and make it a possibility. What I do want to see if this amendment is added, is that the merc-pool is used first and foremost (because I also want to get the non-clannies to experience the exilhiration of the ladder 10v10 battles) and failing that, you can call your buddies in."

 

FYI though, N/A has recently had three members join up [Gnome Chompsky, Williepete & Bebetski]. They were mercs up to this point, and I know that at least two of them were asked if they were specifically interested in joining a ladder team, or N/A specifically. If they said a ladder team, we would have pointed them towards TEA/NSOF/Gun control [which I did in my PMs]. We recognize these very issues which is why we closed off our recruiting drive as soon as we felt we had the numbers to comfortably field 10 players on any given night.

Edited July 15, 200816 yr by Husker

Interesting subject...

 

I would like to point out, that N/A "is not a clan" but a team, of people who used to play together and GruAncH decided to start of team of lazy people who didnt have time for the "Commitments" of a "Clan" but would get to play as a team in ladder events (mostly started for the big team weekends, and it would be like a N/A Squad (for Not Applicable or Not Associated).......since that original begining, members of N/A including GruAncH seem to be some of the most involved members of the community ie: Psyrus and Wolfy etc coordinating with bD and WC head honchos to get all of this done (hopefully easing the work load for the bD admins of the past/present) IRONIC really:) hahahaha...

 

S.O.P i say start a new "Team" its an easy thing as far as recruiting cause its not as demanding as the word Clan would have, thats what worked well for N/A.....and hopefully with the same luck you will get a few members who are willing to do a little extra on there time off, and do some posts etc....from what ive seen there are alot of players joining PR without tags who im sure would be interested, but it requires a bit of work.

 

Another way to help evolve this maybe "Chapters" or "Sister Clans" in other words, smaller teams or groups of friends who have the help of the bigger clans but can do there own thing also (similair to the whole bD© thing)?

 

I had to join N/A as my uncle would have disowned me if i hadnt, which was unfortunate cause i got some great offers from other clans, and SiN's hookers are much better looking than N/A's (which consits of AintWarHell)

 

From what ive seen the 3 big teams/clans are all for forming new teams/clans etc...and im sure there support would be major, but yeah i can see how on the surface it looks like 3 big guys get all the food, and the others are left to take the scraps (obviously not in a bad way), its just a case of people stepping up. And well its hard when only a small percentage use the forums.

 

NOTE: Maybe if its possible bD might think of some sort of password system that encourages signup of forums, to use the servers (just some kinda way of getting new players to interact)...obviously its a fine line of deterent vs interaction.....just maybe a thought.

 

P.S: N/A's new rush of members is purely due to me having joined.....and it will be hard for WC and BD to hold onto the players they have at the moment, as they will no doubt want to be on my team;)

Psyrus: That was very helpful considering other members took it the wrong way. It's good to see that a recruiting drive can be stopped when required. Which was the whole point. If you even have remotely enough players, push new inquiring players to other clans even if they think your clan (team - it's just semantics, clan has always been an 'online' team to me) is awesome.

 

I've been in SiN squads that have top scored the server but without the huge presence that other clans have, our recruiting will always run second best. In the time I have been with SiN, I think we have seen one person been interested in being recruited whereas we have noticed that the the larger clans seem to be getting players more frequently.

 

In regards to the MERCS, yes, it is a great system and allows players to get a feel for things but it doesn't create any competitive, cohesive units when you have a ring-in who may have been asked to play last minute. You would be better off forcing every team to run 1-2 MERCS each ladder match so everyone has that advantage/disadvantage.

 

I joined SiN as a MERC with an affiliation. I don't have time for clan play in most cases, or practising strats in an empty server and I believe they are aware of that. I have had more opportunity to play than perhaps I thought which I'm sure has been noticed. I saw an opportunity to join a team that I thought was low on numbers, perhaps set an example to other new players that you don't have to join the larger teams because they are so awesome, it's about getting a varied ladder going with as many teams as possible.